Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43136		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Nick Royle [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
I've seen them about but has anyone got any opinions on maple-topped acoustics?

I believe our English Sycamore can basically be seen as maple so I'm hoping to use some on my challenge build. Don't have many English top woods to choose from really so hardwood seems about my only option.

I'm prepared for a different and possibly inferior sound to a nice bit of spruce but I'd obviously like it to sound as good as possible. I'll do some measurements if and when I get a piece but I'm guessing the final thickness will be somewhere in the region of 2.5mm (0.1"). I'd either brace with a double x (x instead of tonebars) or attempt my first falcate bracing.

Once again, any insight, advice, opinions, suggestions or tips would be MOST welcome!

Thanks in advance,
Nick
Author:  RusRob [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
I am in no way very experienced to make a recommendation bit if yoy are talking about using hardwood for a top, you might think about a carved top. If I am not mistaken a lot of carved tops are made with maple.

Also I think if you are doing a hardwood top double X bracing may be overkill.

Maybe someone else with more experience would advise different.

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Nick Royle [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Yes, carved tops often are as far as I know... I definitely want to make a flat top though. It does get done but I'm not sure on the specifics. The second x would be very light, I just like the idea of it more than the two "tonebars".

Thanks for the comment though, Bob!

I could get use walnut as the top and treat it like an all hog guitar but, for mainly aesthetic reasons, I'd like to go with sycamore.

Here's an all-maple flat top... It doesn't exactly have the range of spruce but there just isn't any spruce of the right quality grown in the UK. I'm tempted to say the guitar is all-English except the top because I just can't bare the idea of working for a couple of months on a guitar when I know I'm limiting its potential, using a top only because of where it grew.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
I have found maple to be a very flexible, ie not stiff wood. To get the necessary strength needed to resist string tension, I would bet you would have to go a lot thicker than 2.5mm. Most of my spruce tops aren't even that thin.

I wonder if yew would be suitable?
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Nick, I've outlined an approach I used for a hardwood top here. Whilst the outcome sound-wise might be different from what you get with spruce, I don't think you loose anything when using hardwoods, if you design carefully, but it will undoubtedly be different. Rejoice in that!
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
I think Medlingfool might be right. Sycamore has a elastic modulas of 9.92 Gpa (Wood Data Base). Quite low.
I'm wondering about lime or birch. Silver Birch would have to be a 4 piece top. Lime might be niece for a carved top.
Some Data:
Species________________Average Weight____________Elastic Modulas

Sitka spruce___________425 (kg/m3)__________________11.03 (Gpa)
lime __________________535 ______________________11.71
Silver birch______________640 _______________________13.96
koa____________________610________________________10.37

Plenty of variation. Looking at the data above I would say Koa is the least suitable and yet as we have seen, many fine instruments have been made from it.
Someone correct me if I'm looking at this the wrong way.
Author:  Josh H [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
A custom of mine is getting me to make him an all figured maple baritone. He got the idea from a couple of Taylor guitars he saw on youtube.




Josh
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Thanks so much Trevor, glad that my thread prompted the posting of that beautiful guitar and some of the thought behind the design! I'm replying here so as not to clutter your thread with details of my build.

I've found some heavy ripple English sycamore and, thanks to you (as is so often the case) I now know exactly what I want to do with it! What you did! (Or as close as my limited experience could allow me! :lol:) ..

I need to work out what the best English substitute for King Billy Pine would be... The nice Douglas fir I found turned out to be Canadian but hopefully I could find some from here. I know John Buckham has used Douglas with success, so that could be a good bet. Shame ash would be no good. Any other suggestions would be most welcome!

I'll consult the book for working out brace thickness/size once I can measure the wood! I'll also try to work out the mass of a spruce top for the guitar I'm designing...

(13 fret to body, high soundhole. 24.9" scale length, slightly smaller than OM [I need to double check measurements since my last modifications.] I think the bridge location looks quite good. I'll draw out the lattice tonight, till now it has had falcate bracing drawn on.)

Attachment:
Challenge-plan-small-sycamore_01.jpg

(BTW, my brother said he can wait for his Ziricote guitar so I can enter the challenge.)

So far I have:

- English Walnut back and sides
- English Ripple Sycamore top
- English Ash for back kerfing and side splints
- English Chesnut for the top linings
- English Bog Oak for fretboard (I'm guessing bog oak would be too heavy for one of your designs so I may have to dye some lower density English wood to match)
- English quartersawn "bearclaw" (looks like it anyway) Oak neck (bit heavy I know but I'm hoping it won't be a serious issue)

So this "Union Guitar" has quickly become an English Guitar. And I really thought I had something with the Union Flag rosette! :)
Oh well, just makes it all more "local".

---------------------

Thanks Josh,
Those videos are exactly what I watched as soon as I started contemplating a sycamore top!
Good luck with the build! What were you thinking of for bracing?

--------------------

Joe,
That's one of the things that concerned me! Trevor's lattice bracing seems to solve the issue, though, especially with the cf! (Blimey! I know how to make things difficult for myself! :lol: This'll only be the third I've build on my own!)

As for the birch and lime: Who am I to say, but maybe you can think along the same lines as Trevor did for his Koa top. Mass equal to a spruce top for the guitar and adequate bracing? I know even less about carved tops.

----------------

Meddlingfool,
Same as above, I reckon Trevor has the answer for avoiding an overly thick top!

Yew is one native wood that I haven't done a lot of research into yet, though I know there is some available. For aesthetics, the flamed sycamore really appeals, so my research will get a little more focused. I'll try yew some other time. (When this was going to be a Union Guitar, I had briefly thought of getting some Yew from Northern Ireland.)

----------------


Thanks to all!!!!
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Good Luck, Nick.
Never mind about the union guitar. With a bit of luck Scotland will be out of the union soon anyway.
Author:  whiskywill [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Joe Sallis wrote:
With a bit of luck Scotland will be out of the union soon anyway.


Oh no they won't.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
:lol: Come on guys, don't fight in front of the foreigners! We're one, happy, united Kingdom :D Till next year. Maybe.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Nick Royle wrote:
:lol: Come on guys, don't fight in front of the foreigners! We're one, happy, united Kingdom :D Till next year. Maybe.



Don't worry everyone, it's a pantomime.

Oh yes they will!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
:lol:
Author:  Greg B [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
FWIW once I built two identical dulcimers: one from all mahogany and one from all soft maple. The maple one was far superior, and had a big warm woody tone. It was everything that mahogany is supposed to be, but isn't sometimes.

There's always a taste issue concerning whether it is better to use a thin top and stiff bracing, or a thick top and wimpy bracing. I've found that with hardwood tops, it is better to go with a thin top. Best IMO to bring it to about the mass of a spruce top, and just accept that it will be less stiff. Various bracing tricks could be used to prevent excessive deformation.

So +1 on Trevor Gore's suggestion of thin top and lattice, though I actually think your original idea of of double X bracing would be fine. Perhaps a hybrid of the two would be even better.


(In case you arguing "foreigners" aren't familiar with them, ;) a dulcimer is sort of like the German & Dutch scheitholt)
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Nick, have you thought about sycamore for the neck too. There's nothing worse than a neck-heavy instrument. I'm working on one now and it's lovely to carve and light too.
Your pictures look great by the way. Is that the actual wood you are using?
It seems like you know the way to go now.
I'm excited about this build and I'm not even making it!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Greg B wrote:
(In case you arguing "foreigners" aren't familiar with them, ;) a dulcimer is sort of like the German & Dutch scheitholt)


:lol: Oh yeah, we can't move for scheitholts over here! :D
(The Deutsche languages are so beautiful aren't they? Sounds like a particularly violent sneeze!)

Glad to hear the good results, and the vote for Trevor's suggestion. Thanks for the advice! I've just drawn up a rough layout for lattice bracing this top, bit awkward to copy Trevor exactly due to the differences in shape/body join, etc.

Attachment:
Challenge-plan-small-lattice-brace.jpg


Trevor, If you have any thoughts I'd love to hear!

And, Joe, I'm really glad to hear you're excited about the build! I'm a bit daunted and slightly brain-fried just by the research! But I'm excited, too!

The walnut in the picture is the actual set I have (headstock is bookmatched offcuts from back). I saw it at Prime Timber and had to get it! (I'd be lethal if I had more disposable income, I'd have to rent somewhere to store all the wood!) I just throw them together on Photoshop for mockups. I have no CAD experience so I'm almost ashamed to say I do a lot of final plans on Illustrator after importing a pdf from G-Thang and decking it out like the Photoshop mockup.

The oak is also a pic of some very similar to that which I have lined up. I was also hoping to use it for the binding as I like the matching neck and binding look but maybe you're right. I did have that nagging doubt about the weight (usually wise to follow) and I have just used some lovely European maple for a neck which I couldn't help but compare to white chocolate! It was delightful to work and looks lovely. Maybe I should go for the sycamore neck. Still on the fence. If anyone cares to push me off they're most welcome! But offer me a binding suggestion to soften the blow :D

Oh, and the St George's Cross wont make nearly as nice a rosette, so I need to get my thinking hat back on!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Oh, and a tree went down by my house a few months back. I looked today and there was still a bit there so I've got a small piece of horse chesnut to use that grew right next to me for 17 years! Now THAT's something local in this guitar! (Piece of rosette maybe? Inlay?)
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Nick Royle wrote:
Trevor, If you have any thoughts I'd love to hear!

Make sure you know where your bridge pins will land. :lol:
Author:  Greg B [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Nick Royle wrote:
Oh, and the St George's Cross wont make nearly as nice a rosette, so I need to get my thinking hat back on!


I dunno, how about making a St George's cross 'log', and doing a simple ring of tiles, with inner and outer purflings to dress it up? Holly and bloodwood would do the trick. It's a little old fashioned, but would look very nice I think.

I also would like to see an elaborate inlay of St George and the Dragon on the headstock, of course. ;)
Author:  cphanna [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Hey, Nick,

I will be watching your thread. I don't have the experience to advise you on a maple or sycamore top, but lots of our fellow members can help you with that. In the meantime, I just want to wish you the best of luck. I think you have drawn an excellent rendering of a concept guitar and I am quite sure you will make something very good of it. How will it compare to a spruce topped instrument? We won't know until you do it, so press on and make it happen! My hat is in the ring with you, which is a very old American way of saying "I am on your team".

Patrick
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Trevor Gore wrote:
Nick Royle wrote:
Trevor, If you have any thoughts I'd love to hear!

Make sure you know where your bridge pins will land. :lol:


:lol: Aye, they land mighty close to braces! According to that drawing it works but I'll keep a constant eye on that. Dowels in predrilled holes during lattice glue up should do it? I said that like it was my idea :lol: Till your post regarding the bridge patch on the other thread, I was thinking of a pinless bridge to avoid such trouble.

Glad the extra waist braces and 45 degree angle seem ok to you! I'm going to read and reread the books to prepare myself!

----

Greg, the tile rosette could work nicely! I'll draw one up and see (though I wouldn't want the only non-English wood on the guitar to be the one for the flag). I've got a few budding ideas...
The George and the Dragon inlay, though? I think I'll give that a miss! :D ... I have been thinking a little about a Lion though. Not much. But a little. Defnitely want something on the fretboard, at the 12th fret maybe. There's no way I could cut this out!!! (???)

Attachment:
england-three-lions-logo.jpg


---

Thanks so much, Patrick! Immensely glad to have you on-board! Here's hoping it goes well! Glad you like the shape, too, it's the first one I've drawn (made on G-Thang) that I haven't had too many second thoughts about. I have a good feeling about this plan now. You know how I punish myself but there's always that dream: that this one may represent a quantum leap in terms of my progress as a "craftsman"!

Best to all!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
Joe Sallis wrote:
Nick, have you thought about sycamore for the neck too. There's nothing worse than a neck-heavy instrument.



Hi Joe,
I was just thinking about this and checked dry weights on the wood database....

English oak: 42 lbs/ft3 (675 kg/m3)
Honduran Mahogany: 41 lbs/ft3 (655 kg/m3)

The difference in weight between the English sycamore and oak neck will probably be a couple-a-few hundred grams. Hmmm

Considering Queensland maple is 35 lbs/ft3 (560 kg/m3), it seems there can be quite a wide range of acceptable weights. English sycamore is listed at 38 lbs/ft3 (615 kg/m3)... Between the two, it's the aesthetics that concern me more than the weight, but maybe I'm underestimating what those couple-a-hundred grams will feel like. Maybe I'm underestimating the difference in weight, I'm not known for my maths skills.

It'll be 13 frets, so one fret lighter than usual :lol:. Fairly light headstock, too. And non-live back, so *relatively* heavier body. Possibly side masses, too. Still, it's a lot heavier than Trevor's necks.

I just can't see the sycamore working aesthetically in my minds eye. It could kinda clash with the top. And the oak gives me bindings too.

Hope no one minds me thinking out loud, as it were. I really want to use the oak but don't want to make a terrible decision.

I was worried that Honduran hog was more stable, but Queensland maple has similar figures to the English oak.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
I would never have guessed oak and H mahogany are so close in weight.
Seems like you're set to go.
personally, I'm still not sure what woods to use for the challenge build.
I'm hoping something will magically turn up when I'm not looking, trouble is, it's hard to stop looking.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
:lol: I suppose you need to set a start date and go for whatever your best options are then. The problem we seem to have here is that most timber yards don't seem to be very well "search engine optimised" if they have a web presence at all. And even then not many seem to care much about wide quartersawn boards. Internet research doesn't seem to be the best way to do it, I keep finding American sites advertising far more English wood than I can find here! How did people do it in the old days? Actually go places? :lol:

I did lots of Googling, emailing and phoning and the choices do seem limited. Certainly puts the "challenge" into the 2014 OLF Challenge for us Brits! I can't believe no-one from Eastern Europe has entered with an all-quilted maple/spruce guitar, or that no South Americans have entered with a guitar made from their incredible native woods!

The carved lime sounds sounds really cool, though. You could call it "The Limey" and give the septic tanks a good laugh :D (all in good fun!)

(And, yeah, I reckon the English oak is the one! I'll try to save weight where I can.)
Author:  johnparchem [ Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maple/Sycamore Acoustic Soundboard
This looks like a fun project! Are you going to use carbon fiber on the braces as well?
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/